Possible Father of Matthew Gleaves?

On Saturday, September 26, 2009, 7:25 PM, William Finley wrote:

I am going to do my best to contain my excitement while I try to type this email to you.  I have been painstakingly going through the old Finley homestead where I grew up going through all my father’s records and research on the family a little at a time trying my best not to discard anything important.  My father began his research in the 1920's and as you can imagine there is stuff stored everywhere.  Anyway, I was cleaning out the last closet in the office and found a treasure trove of family history from my grandmother’s side of the family (my father’s mother).  Letters dating back to the 1880's are the kind of thing I found today.  Anyway, I found a rare book on the Gribbel and Elkins family and guess what?  Yep, I found a family that caught my eye called the Crozer family. 

Page 1 of Crozer Family.

Page 2 of Crozer Family.

Page 3 of Crozer Family.

 A James Crozer came to Philadelphia in about 1723 (or it says possibly 1740) with four brothers from County Antrim, Ireland.  They were Presbyterian by faith.  The came from France to Scotland and then to Ireland about 1712.  His brother John Crozer married Esther Gleave the daughter of John and Elizabeth (Miller) Gleave (no "s" at the end of Gleave).

 John Gleave's father was George Gleave and he was an early settler in Springfield Township,  PA, married in 1687, in Chester Meeting, Esther Powell; both were friends.  He died in 1690 leaving only one child, John Gleave.

 John Gleave married Nov. 16, 1706/07, in Chester Meeting, Elizabeth Miller of Springfield Township, who died in 1727, age about 40.  They had two children:

 George Gleave and Esther Gleave who married John Crozer.

 I have to share this jumped right off the page seeing the name Esther Gleave and I have to feel there may possibly be a connection here to my GGG Grandmother Esther Gleaves Finley who shared the same name.

 1. I wonder if it is possible that George Gleave might be Matthew Gleaves father?

 2. It might mean Matthew was born before 1727....or ...could Esther Gleave died giving birth to Matthew in 1727?

Let me know your thoughts.  I am more than happy to scan these pages and send them to you if you like.

On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Dennis Glaves (family historian) wrote:

Thanks for sending me what you have found.  You have found a line that I have tried to connect to our family for some time.  I agree, if Matthew Gleaves was born in America this would be the likely family.  So far, I have not been able to find any solid leads that would disprove Family folklore that he was born in Cambridgeshire.

There was a second George Gleaves who arrived about the same time but that line went to Kent County, MD and I think I have identified all the children from that family and there is no Matthew. 

I have started going through the details of your emails and will take a fresh look at this possibility.  It has been awhile since I looked into this so I will have to get up to speed again.  If I remember correctly, many from this line settled in Ohio.

I also have a good bit of research that I am attaching as a genealogy report.  Again I will have to take a fresh look at this as well.  The report is just the data from my Familytreemaker file and has not been formatted.

On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Alice Hix (webmaster) wrote: 

 I am adding Bill Gleaves to this discussion.  Since he recently received the results of the DNA tests that he had done between himself and an English Gleaves that showed a shared ancestor, I think it would be worthwhile for a test to be done with the Ohio Gleaves.  I know some of them went to Colorado and there were some in Oregon.

On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 7:40 PM, William Gleaves wrote:

I will be glad to work with any "Ohio Gleaves" to get a DNA test.  It will have to be a male
descendent in a direct line.

Mine and Larry Gleaves' tests were done by FamilyTreeDNA.  I can give that person the test kit numbers of our two tests and then they can be compared.

If there is a relationship, I would be most interested in where their ancestors came from in England.  The Gleaves name appeared in Willingham about 1675, but we no evidence where they came from before that.  There are Gleaves names at Stoke-on-Trent and one or two other places, but no connections to my knowledge.

I have a wild theory.  The English defeated the Scots in the early 1600's at the Battle of Dunbar.  They took many Scottish prisoners and brought them to the "Fens" to work on building dikes.  Apparently many of those prisoners remained in the Fens (Cambridgeshire) after being released.  Could our Matthew's grandfather have been one of those released prisoners?  An interesting theory.

On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Wm Earl Finley wrote:

It seems at first glance, if I have read all this correctly, the information you sent identifies John Gleave and Elizabeth Miller's children as being Esther Gleave, Rachel Gleave, and Issac Gleave.

 In the information I sent, it has John Gleave and Elizabeth Miller as parents of George Gleave, Esther Gleave, m. John Crozer, Rachel Gleave, m. James Crozer, Issac Gleave, and John Gleave, m. Elizabeth Eachus.

 Note: George Gleave is listed as the first child in the information I sent you.  That usually indicates first born, but not always.

The will abstract of John Gleave, m. to Elizabeth Miller in the information you sent provides for Esther Gleave, Rachel Gleave, and Issac Gleave, but does not provide for or name sons George Gleave or John Gleave.

 This would not be unusual if George Gleave was first born, because he may already have been provided for which was how things were traditionally done if first born was provided for already (i.e. the reason he would not be named or given anything in will).  However, it does not explain John Gleave not being provided for if he was last in the list of children in the information I sent you indicating he possibly was the youngest... unless he was already dead when John Gleave, m. to Elizabeth Miller died.

 Interestingly and in support of that possibility about John Gleave being dead, the very next abstract in the information you sent is about the Widow Elizabeth Gleave, who according to the information I sent, a Elizabeth Eachus was married to John Gleave the last child listed of John Gleave and Elizabeth Miller.

 In the information you sent, the Widow Elizabeth Gleave in the abstract names her children by the last name Eachus, which indicates she likely had children by a previous or first husband with the last name Eachus, but according to the information I sent she was married to John Gleave, John and Elizabeth Miller's last child in the list.  And...in support of John Gleave being the son of John Gleave and Elizabeth Miller, the abstract has her name as the "Widow Elizabeth Gleave" leaving things to her children with the last name Eachus.

 Again, could John Gleave (possible son of John Gleave, m. to Elizabeth Miller) have died young, and why he was not named in John Gleave, m. to Elizabeth Miller's will?  Certainly a plausible explanation as well.

 Bottom line - if John Gleave and Elizabeth Miller were indeed married in 1706/07 and had a son named George Gleave the very first year, he would have been 20-21 years old when Mathew Gleaves was born in 1727.  By 1751 when John Gleave, m. to Elizabeth Miller died, George Gleave, if he was born in 1706/07, would be well into his adulthood (50-51 years old) with family and home of his own.

 Just a another thought, I wonder if Elizabeth Miller was possibly a second wife for John Gleave, and could George Gleave be a child from a first marriage?  I offer this thought, because there is a discrepancy related to Elizabeth Miller with both sets of information.  The information I sent says Elizabeth Miller died in 1727.  The information you sent has Elizabeth Miller as an Executor in the 1751/53 Will abstract for John Gleave.

 More research is certainly needed here...but it seems plausible, timeline wise for George Gleave to be the father of Matthew Gleaves if he was born in 1706/07, and worth another look in my opinion.....

 Also, add the fact there is a child in the family named Esther Gleave, which is the same name as my GGG Grandmother Esther Gleaves Finley (wife of Asa Finley) and can't be ignored either.  That is what really caught my eye.....

 I have scanned and attached the front page of the book, which has the name of the book, author, year published etc...for your records as well.  I am also resending the three pages from the book.  Very few copies where ever printed of this book, because it was privately published by the author John Gribbel according to my Aunt.

 John Gribbel was the brother-in-law of my Great Aunt Margaret Douglas Latta Gribbel.

 Good luck...please let me know what you come up with...I leave this in your capable hands.  It is just amazing to me I even caught this yesterday skimming through this book.  I really hope it helps with your research on the Gleaves family....

 PS John Gribbel did list his sources for this attached information under the Crozier's information (page 92).  I recommend tracking down that information as well for your records.  It may lead to even more information.... 

On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Wm Earl Finley wrote:

 Correction....

 By 1751/53 when John Gleave, m. to Elizabeth Miller died, George Gleave, if he was born in 1706/07, would be well into his adulthood (44-47 years old) with family and home of his own.

On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 8:31 PM, Dennis Glaves wrote:

I have a three page document dealing with the possibility that Matthew Gleaves was born in America, a descendant of George Gleave. 

As you will see, I cannot verify or dismiss this position.  I offer this as a source to continue debate.  Hope you all find this as interesting as I did.

On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 9:15 PM, Wm Earl Finley wrote: 

 I agree....

 If this person is a descendant of Issac Gleave and they are willing to do a DNA test it would be well worthwhile doing.

 I think as well the Crozier's that intermarried with this Gleave family represent a possibility to gain more information, and their family history should be explored, maybe first on rootsweb, as well to see if other Crozier family researchers have anything on this particular Gleave family (I bet they do.).

 Last, I again wonder if George Gleave is a child of a previous marriage of John Gleave Sr..  Can't say why I feel that he might be, but there seems to be little information on him that makes me wonder if that is the reason why.  Just a gut feel and nothing more.  Always follow your first gut feeling until proven otherwise I say.